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HOW TO REDUCE POINT CREEP | Randy’s Ideas #buildempire
#howto
1715 read – 194 like
Randy Newberg has some ideas on how to get rid of point creep and point collectors! Here they are!
0:00-1:11 Intro
1:11-2:08 State Revenue Streams
2:09-2:20 PROMO CODE
2:21-3:35 Ideas From State Systems
3:36-4:50 No Point Purchases
4:51-5:29 Ponts get Rest When You Draw
5:30-6:19 Points go Away Including Leftovers
6:20-7:33 Party Applications
7:34-8:17 Stricker Rule on Return Tags
8:20-10:24 Conclusion
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I agree with everyone of these ideas. I’m also an outfitter in wyoming and a public land hunter!
The only good reason for points is to allow those that are trying to draw a specific area to draw a tag. Eventually. Because of the hunter to animal ratio things need to get more strict. If an area is drawn by a max point holder then he is never allowed to draw that area again. This would not apply for general season. No more buying points in or out of state. The way the system is now is not fair. For example: My nephew is half my age and has drawn several limited entry tags to my two. Before points my work mates drew tags every year while I drew none. The systems are all catered for money making. Just rip off the band-aide already and let the rich have all the fun. Or shall we ban together as sportsman and make the changes that benefit us common joe hunters. Or does anyone give a darn anymore. I know everyone wants a chance to hunt all species/areas of their dreams but in this day and age that is simply not feasible. I miss spoke, money makes this happen. This old man has been disappointed enough to know when to give up.
For me buying a point and applying in WY each year just to hopefully draw and maybe hunt with my brother and cousin in the same units we grew up hunting in is a necessary evil. Living in MT now the same they struggle to be able to enjoy a hunt with me up here and experience MT. Sharing memories in the field together as a family has almost become impossible for big game. I have a lifetime hunting/fishing/conservation license for Wyoming. I wonder if States would ever consider allowing past residents that have immediate family living in the state to have better odds of drawing a hunt unit. I know that is going to upset many but hunting is tradition and family and memories and it is not money or points which is what this has all become.
Agree on all accounts.
Something needs to be done. I have done one draw/point hunt and I only had two points and it was for pronghorn. For Elk and Deer, I don’t have any points because I feel like as a hunter just getting into this, I am too far behind. I will just put in for areas with random draws and hunt OTC when I don’t draw. I honestly don’t know what else to even do at this point. But as to your ideas;
#1… Im not sure how that helps because if I want to wait for a certain hunt I will just apply for the hunt I know I will never draw so I can get my point and then take my refund later, but maybe I just don’t understand what you’re saying.
#2 ….would be good. You have to decide if you want to hunt OTC or draw or a combination in alternating years which I think would lower the number of points needed to draw mid tier units. I like that idea a lot.
#3…I don’t understand the distinction between this and #2.
#4…I don’t like. I had two pronghorn points in WY and was able to take my dad on a super fun trip when he had 0 points. We obviously wouldn’t have gotten to have that trip together if we had to go with 0 points. It’s hard to convince a friend with 0 points to apply and save points for several years before going on a trip with you but I’m more than willing to split my points with them so we can both have a good trip even if I’d not be getting as good of a hunt as I could get on my own . If party hunting is a problem maybe instead of averaging ALL the points, average the lowest and highest. So if you have hunters with points of 2,2,3,and 7 instead of 2+2+3+7=14/4hunters= 3.5 points each you do 2(lowest)+7(highest)=9/4hunters= 2.25 points each. That way everyone can hunt together but the lowest point holders aren’t getting huge point gains via a party app.
#5…Yeah you need a legitimate reason to turn that tag in.
I think I would like to just see random lottery draws. Grandfather point holders in by giving them extra tickets in the bucket commensurate with their number of points so they aren’t completely screwed.
All good ideas with varying degrees of merit, with zero chance they will ever be acted on. Until we as hunters can get across the idea that continuing to kick the cam down the road while soaking in revenue is a politically bad decision for elected officials (and the pressure they can put on bureaucrats in the game departments) then we will see no change. With the limited number of hunters (as a percentage of a voting population) we have little chance of swaying the tide. People hate it but I say it all the time. The number one thing I teach my kids about hunting is not scouting, not what gear works, not even playing the wind, it is having a good career so you can buy the tags you want. They are 8 now. When they are 44 like myself I would be lying to them saying they have a decent chance at drawing the better units in the west.
Randy. I would agree with most of what you said. I have people offer me good money to apply in a party application to use my points. (Mind you the most I have is 6 in any state) the biggest two I see is getting rid of the points only option, and, regardless of what tag you get, you loose your points. These options would level the playing field significantly
Unfortunately the system is not going to change in my opinion. Just get ready for higher point $ cost and harder or more complex systems to increase revenue for the states. Best suggestion could be to take up residency in the state that fits your hunting needs or wants. Happy points everyone.
@fresh_tracks did Marcus or MikeyP get your “Point Systems Suck!” t-shirt made? Maybe Big Hank saying that on the front, and then on the back it says “but so does your aim!!!”
First, Point Creepers are a First World Problem . . . but off with their heads any way!
I agree with 1-3. Re #4 – never done a party app, so don’t have an opinion. Re # 5 yes, cold feet or I procrastinated and didn’t get in shape should not be forgiven. Go ahead and return the tag and let someone who’s ready to go, go. But the returner, shall return to zero.
Another change/rule similar to a NV/AZ rule, if you do not apply for a species for 2 consecutive years, you go to zero on that species; and if you don’t apply in the state at all for 3 consecutive years, everything goes to zero.
Last change/rule, everyone has X years to burn the points they have. Thereafter, no more point systems. No regular/special draws. Instead, those who want to apply can submit 5 choices by a deadline (with one of the “unit” choices being any available unit). Then, go about randomly picking an order for those applications and issue tags.
Those who really want Unit X, Y, or Z, but not any available unit, will either get their choice, or not. Those who just want to get out there, can have a chance at 1 of 4 preferred units, but then take whatever is left, rather than picking 4 preferred zones, and then guessing wrong with their 5th based on what’s left.
I love your first 4 ideas. The preference points system is killing the hunt in Utah and we need to get rid of them.
You’re awesome Randy, but have always wanted to challenge you on your views regarding the pros and cons of current western state preference/bonus point systems. Be careful what you wish for. You may be underweighting the beneficial “secondary effects” of the point systems that result from human behavioral quirks – one example of which becomes evident when examining WHY people buy points but don’t put in for the draws. Ultimately, many will NEVER convert their points to a hunt – even from the group of compulsive buyers. Some will age out. Many will injury/health out. And others will just never “convert” to a hunt for no reason at all. Why? For the same reason we have a gift card industry. People regularly, and surprisingly, fail to cash in accrued benefits in all sorts of circumstances. Why do they keep buying? For a host of reasons. For some, the fear of missing out. For others, the sunk cost bias to purchase again, and the fact that they convince themselves that they need to keep their “streak” going even when they realize they may never use the points. Notwithstanding their misgivings, they still get a dopamine release from adding another meaningless point to their total.
If you were to convince a number crunching actuarial to look at the actual conversion rates of point holders, and, moreover, to compare the number of hunts that a point buyer actually participates in over a hunting lifetime in a particular state versus what they would do if they couldn’t buy points (put in for the draw more often), it may be the case that the point systems actually keep people OUT of the field more than they would otherwise be IN the field. E.g., someone will collect points for 16 years and take one hunt, versus the alternative of applying every year and perhaps taking 3 or 4 hunts over that same 16 year period.
Anyway, that’s a long winded diatribe to illustrate just a few of the many human factors at play in point systems. It is a fascinating topic and I’m surprised that there is not much published in the way of statistical analysis of abandonment rates (people that quit buying without ever hunting), conversion rates (people who buy and ultimately use the points), and, most important, comparative analysis (how does point buying change how the buyer would otherwise behave? Does point buying satiate the urge to go over-the-counter or otherwise find a way to the woods, thus actually lessening the crowding that would otherwise occur?).
Yes, point creep is real. But the alternatives may not get you in the field more often. It goes without saying that your odds of drawing a tag are better if the pool of applicants is smaller. Sidelining folks for 15 to 20 years while they accumulate points for a glory unit likely helps those of us who cash them in more frequently.
Would love to hear you interview some human factors folks on the topic. And maybe you can convince some clever statisticians to take a closer look at the complexities.
Thanks for all you do for us Randy. We really appreciate you!
I nominate you Randy to be the chairman and director of our North America Wildlife for Conservation. Please start by making all of your changes you just spoke about across all states that participate in non-resident point schemes. Also you are the only person to name your successor. BTW. Don’t forget about the wolfs and bears when you are in office. 😊
I’m in total agreement with burning down all Point Systems, equal odds are good odds. That’s the ONLY way to fix Point Creep.
Love it Randy! Keep talking about it. I’m in.
Of what you just talked about any big game hunter that has hunted for years already knows what you just explained, Nothing new… If they’re educated in hunting in their state (or whatever state they like to hunt in) on the do’s & don’t’s and have too’s will know or should know how it works.
The system sucks!…We know they make a ton of money off of us. What can you do? Nothing… Nobody’s not gonna stop putting (buying) points in to change things, and DWR know this! As you said or as I put it, A SCAM!
Love your videos, and always thanks for sharing!
Why was not going New Mexico style an option brought up (minus the dumb separation of guided v non guided non residents)? If each state just gave a set amount of percent to non-residents like 10 to 20, and let it be a true lottery you may not have years where you know you’re going to draw bc your collected a bunch of points but at least you have a fair shot every year.
In MN…if you have 5 points for a bear tag your name goes in the bucket 5 times. If you’ve ever been to a DU banquet and watched the guy win a gun from a bucket raffle who threw in 1 ticket and you put in 20….that’s MN point system. If you’ve got 5 pts (and that’s the top end of point getters) all available tags should be drawn out of the 5 pt group. If there’s more tags after that draw, move to all the 4s.
I think you have some great ideas Randy, now we just need the states to realize there is an issue that needs changed.
Randy’s Rant Corner lol
#1 won’t work, I’d just apply for the coveted unit if I wanted to get only a point
#2 I’m in favor of
#3 I’m in favor of unless it’s a female species
#4 I don’t like the idea of holding the party down. I feel Wyoming does a good job but maybe restrict the party to 3
#5 YES PLEASE!! Make returns unforgiving!
My solution – restructure the draws similar to AZ and incentivize people to apply. Give people an actual shot for the NW corner that have no points.
I am picking a no point zone and hunting the sane area every year. I am done.